A race realism debate

*My leftie (former) friend’s comments are in blue. Unfortunately I only saved my replies and not the whole debate, but should still be of some use.

Most of the research was provided by hubby ❤

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I can feel your sincerity and care, and you really put thought into it!! So I’m really impressed! And I understand, I wish we could help everyone, even more if *everyone* would spend all their waking hours helping everyone, as much as possible! Compassion is good, as well as not labelling and stereotyping (although the left do this too as in the case of labelling people “alt-right” and “white/male privilege” for example). The left are helpful though in always reminding us all about compassion, social freedoms and helping the underdog. Personally, I’m a centrist, as I agree with some policies from the left and some from the right, depending who seems to have the most fair and helpful solution.

Who do you think should help the disadvantaged and how? To redistribute more wealth to the poor? How do we make sure they don’t just kill themselves faster like some: https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/105390029/aucklands-phoney-homeless-raking-in-100-a-day-on-the-streets?cid=facebook.post.105390029

It’s not help if they don’t become empowered and self-reliant, rather it’s creating dependence and leaving people helpless for when you’re not around… For most people, the more things are handed them, the less incentive they have for personal growth.

Also who should pay for it? You mentioned “White people were always given privileges” – by whom? You know that’s racist. 😛 Not all white people are born into wealth, many had generations of family making sacrifices (Protestant Ethic) having to earn it. I personally know many poor white people who struggle, and hubby and I were two of them. There was no affirmative action like scholarships and quotas for us, or government programmes. It’s why we’re so damn frugal. Stefan Molyneux himself came from poverty, not having food to eat as a kid, and is self-made.

Haven’t heard Stefan say that blacks are “bad”, and he does promote solutions to prevent crime by teaching peaceful parenting (negotiation instead of smacking), encouraging people to stay married (to have both parents), avoiding day care etc. with stats showing how it lowers criminality.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/racial-differences-in-homicide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/ Race, as a correlation to crime) predicts better than the poverty rate, median household income, racial segregation, income segregation, education rates, and so on and so forth but I know from other studies, when you also account for IQ, the differences about disappear.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886913000470 Analysis of this data revealed that African American males are significantly more likely to be arrested and incarcerated when compared to White males. This racial disparity, however, was completely accounted for after including covariates for self-reported lifetime violence and IQ.

“I tell everyone, and it would be a fact.” you tell everyone that Maori commit more crimes?

Looking up Maori being paid half the benefit: Act has produced significant research that shows there is a $5 billion Maori tax-to-benefit gap. For every $2 Maori pay in tax, Maori receive $7, a net gain of $5. Another way of looking at it, on average, a Maori person will receive each year in benefits from the taxpayer $8000 more than they pay in taxes. Over a lifetime, the average net benefit for each Maori is $560,000. 😮

These transfers do not include Waitangi settlements, the allocation of radio wave bands, the fishing settlement or the foreshore claim. People who go to work in NZ are paying for this, so that’s why NZ is so expensive to live in compared to many other countries. It’s worst for low-wage earners who haven’t inherited any family wealth.

 

I see them as people who just need equal opportunity after being disadvantaged for so long.

I believe Maori could be just as capable as everyone else and it’s respectful to them to hold them to the same standards. Quotas for “special groups” are essentially insinuating to the person that they might not be able to get there on their own merit. If Maori are encouraged to be dependent on government favours for their livelihoods, then the government has the power, not the Maori. I’m sure you heard the wise words “give the man a fish vs teach him to fish”? Which man is better off?

It was best said by the Maori statesman Sir Peter Buck (Te Rangi Hiroa): “Beware of separatism. The Maori can do anything the Pakeha can do, but in order to achieve this we must all be New Zealanders first – one nation, one people, closely-knit people, a people of singular contentment, a people of a sense of trust and mission, a people no longer insular. Above all, we must all work together – work, work, work – and have a national pride and character built upon faith and love, which is our greatest heritage.”

Equal opportunity means equal access to education and basic necessities, but there’s no way to eliminate every possible disadvantage one person might have over another when competing for a place in higher education, job, loan, partner etc. There are waaay too many variables, and it’s impossible to judge the amount of effort a person has put in. Everything should be open to everyone, no matter who they are. And institutions should take the absolute best people available, if we want public services to function.

 

More Maoris are on the benefit because of the socioeconomic disadvantages imposed on them from the past.. Now the government tries to make up for breaking the Treaty of Waitangi and disadvantaging them so much by giving them Maori and Pasifika education programmes, gateways into uni etc. So I’m not surprised more Maoris are on the benefit.

If Maori are on the benefit because of intergenerational poverty, why not the historically poor Chinese and Indian immigrants who come here with nothing? They typically work hard, and pay in a lot more taxes than they take out in welfare.

Re: Government breaking the Treaty of Waitangi. Land was confiscated from Maori groups who started an armed rebellion against the Government. The Maori were in breach of the treaty by doing so, since they had given Sovereignty to the Queen.

Maori needing lower qualifications to get into uni will get people killed – like when a less qualified person becomes a surgeon, firefighter, paramedic, doctor, police officer, childcare provider etc.

 

More of their past generations would have had less financial support like having half the unemployment benefit.

I looked into the ‘Maori paid half the benefit’ here https://nzinitiative.org.nz/dmsdocument/86 and this was the only related comment I found:

“The practice of paying Maori less, because they lived communally and shared living expenses, persisted. The sharing of benefit payments was seen as a misuse, much as it is today when beneficiaries do not declare their living arrangements. For Maori, the assumption that they shared was tacit. In order to receive a European level of benefit, Maori had to live like Europeans”

They were paid less because they needed less upon a needs assessment. The benefit works the same way now.

Also, the benefit really doesn’t help Maori. It keeps them dependent so they are less likely to want to find work or engage in society:

“Margaret McClure, who reviewed the Department of Social Welfare’s files of correspondence, wrote that during the 1940s Family Benefit for Maori was the most controversial aspect of the department’s work. Rather than supplementing hard work, the benefit demoralised Maori communities already vulnerable to drinking and gambling excesses. The men could spend their wages as they wished, regarding the benefit as covering family needs. The New Zealand Financial Times called social security the ‘chief industry’ of the East Coast and blamed the government for ‘debauching the Maori with easy money’. Police at Ruatoria reported that the position was ‘chaotic’. The child welfare officer noted that parents were no longer urging young adolescents into the workforce and 25 boys were on trial for crimes”

 

Racism against black and dark coloured people also means police stop them more often, and their punishments are more severe than others.

Regarding blacks getting longer prison sentencing ‘for the same crimes’, this does not account for the other variables that go into a sentence: the defendant’s prior criminal record, the severity of the crime in question, the offender’s demeanour with police, whether a weapon was used, and whether the crime in question was victim precipitated.

No differences have been found in sentencing patterns, either in relation to the victim’s race or the offender’s race.

In 1983, the liberal-leaning National Academy of Sciences found “no evidence of a widespread systematic pattern of discrimination in sentencing.”

In 1985, the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology concluded that a disproportionate number of blacks were in prison not because of a double standard of justice, but because of the disproportionate number of crimes they committed.

A 1991 RAND Corporation study found that a defendant’s racial or ethnic group affiliation bore little or no relationship to conviction rates; far more important than race were such factors as the amount of evidence against the defendant, and whether or not a credible eyewitness testified. This same study found almost no relation between a defendant’s race or ethnicity and his or her likelihood of receiving a severe sentence.

In 1993, a study of federal sentencing guidelines found no evidence of racially disparate punishments for perpetrators of similar offenses. The seriousness of the crime, the offender’s prior criminal record, and whether weapons were used accounted for all the observed interracial variations of prison sentences.

http://go.galegroup.com/ps/i.do;jsessionid=F20EF60D886E56708B2A76C918E4D760.omni_as18?p=OVIC&u=cclc_el&v=2.1&it=r&id=GALE%7CEJ3010120276&asid=1533528000000~fff7a5c8

 

Brock Turner, the white male rapist, is an example of this.. People arguing for him say he shouldn’t be punished for raping a girl because he’s a good swimmer.

I’m unfamiliar with the Brock Turner case. From a brief search it seems he confessed, so they should be punished the same as anyone who does the same crime. Everyone should be treated the same under the law.

Immediately after Turner’s conviction, there was widespread public criticism of the sentence, accusing Persky of judicial bias in favor of male, white and class privilege,[15] leading to campaigns for his recall or resignation. The Santa Clara County Bar Association and public defenders defended Persky, saying that the sentence was based upon the probation report as well as being consistent with similar cases, and stated that his removal would be a “threat to judicial independence”.

That said, I couldn’t find anyone wanting him let off ‘for being a good swimmer’ or anything similar. Please provide a source? :3

This fear of racism also lead to the UK police covering up Muslim groups raping thousands of girls

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/250972/one-million-child-victims-muslim-rape-gangs-uk-arnold-ahlert  Should they be punished?

 

The fact that whites got the full unemployment benefit, for example, may not be ‘privilege’ like I said but priority. They were always given priority. And it’s not news that even today, people with white sounding names are more likely to land job interviews and opportunities.

Affirmative action like Maori scholarships and other aids makes it harder for Maori to get jobs. Employers know they receive the same qualification with a lower passing mark. All else being equal, employers may favour the white candidate over the Maori, because the white one had to work harder to earn it, and is potentially more qualified.

Actually many companies have diversity as a core component of their mission statement, and preferentially hire non-whites.

A similar claim of discrimination was made about less women being hired due to sexism, so they started doing blind recruitment where all the names were removed from CV’s etc. This got the opposite result, where even less women were recruited. Reason being, they were already preferentially hiring women over men, and making it a blind recruitment process made it an even playing field http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888

 

Another example of whites being given priority is in real estate and property, a massively profitable investment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETR9qrVS17g

The assertions made in that video didn’t reference any research, but have been debunked with research: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7E_Ss5OwWQ

Coming back to the idea that all wealth was made from stolen Maori land, and passed down inter-generationally doesn’t sound right since stats show 77.1% of white people receive no inheritance.

P.S. “I tell everyone and it would be a fact” is hypothetical – I meant to say “If I told everyone, it would be a fact”. In Criminology in university we learnt about how Maoris made up 16% of the population but 41% of the prison population. But I don’t see Maori’s as more likely to be criminals etc.

You said you don’t see Maori as more likely to be criminals, but do you have any studies backing that up?

I’m unfamiliar with any Maori specific studies, but the same claims about institutional racism are made in the US police dealing with African Americans. The difference is largely explained by fatherless homes for black families, higher poverty rate, and lower IQ (partially due to spanking kids more commonly). Those are some of the social factors that Stefan Molyneux addresses in his parenting books and radio show call-in counselling.

https://therationalists.org/2016/07/13/why-do-black-people-commit-more-crime/

“A common criticism of these figures is that they are based on arrests by police officers who may be disproportionately targeting black neighbourhoods due to racial bias or profiling. However, these statistics seem to be corroborated by the National Crime Victimisation Surveys performed by the Department of Justice. The latest NCVS data is from 2008 and is collected by a random survey of 90,000 households.”

Also, police are terrified of accusations of racism. They go to great lengths to avoid it, as it would end their career. https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/test-9 “But when it came to shooting the suspects, police officers were more likely to fire without having first been attacked if the suspects were white. Officers were 20% less likely to shoot at a black suspect.”

 

Maybe right wing people enjoy focusing so much on race and what divides humans, but I don’t, that’s their choice and this is mine. I really can’t comment on what the right wing focus on, I’ m a centrist.

Just in the past year I’ve had countless rude encounters with strangers who all coincidentally happened to be white people. Personally I think it’s unproductive and causes racial disharmony to keep focusing on which groups commit more crime, which groups are better or worse at that, etc etc. I think it’s more progressive and beneficial to focus on caring for absolutely everyone regardless of race, for equal opportunity.

“Caring for everyone regardless of race” –then you probably agree that all people should be treated the same ,under the same law, with equal opportunities, regardless of race? I’m still to see evidence of white people being privileged over non-white, and have cited much evidence demonstrating the reverse. I don’t condone rude behaviour, but there’s also much discrimination and rude behaviour against foreigners in the Middle East, East Asia, etc. as people around the world tend to prefer their in-group. If anything, the West is more tolerant and allows more freedoms which is why people flock here. Affirmative action is discriminating in favour of one group (often race but not always) at the expense of the other and is not ‘caring for everyone’.

I mentioned some ways we can actually help people who are struggling in my previous message as well as this one and would love to hear your ideas. I hope we can learn from each other and work together to empower people to lead more fulfilling lives.

*Huggles* hope this wasn’t as stressful for you ~ I don’t really enjoy disagreements.

I understand if you take a while to get back to me as there are many things to look into!
xo

 

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3 months+ later she has not said another word to me.

Where is the infamous tolerance and empathy of the left? :/

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